DUST Search - shield tanks need a big buff

Eurydice Itzhak wrote:

EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote:

Incorrect. If the Gallente Rail sniper has more EHP than the Caldari tank, it does not have better mobility, and it does not do more damage. Shield tanks have better resistances for a shorter period of time, which makes sense when you should only be activating them to get your tank behind cover quickly, since you should be far and away from the combat.

The Madrugar can be equal to the Gunnlogi when fit with Railguns on some fronts, but it sacrifices on others. It is capable of higher damage at the cost of incredibly paper thin tank, it is capable of going faster at NIL tank, it is capable of higher EHP at the cost of all mobility..

The only 100% correct point you have there is Armor repair modules are indeed "better" than shield regenerators. Probably has something to do with CCP factoring in natural shield regen rate.

Edit: Before being flamed for absolutely no reason and have people make entirely irate assumptions about me, my personal life, and how I play this game, yes. I armor tank. I am Gallente and only spec into Gallente Suits and vehicles (and for the most part weaponry). That said, I have used far more shield tanks than armor tanks, although I've used both. So trying to say I don't have any opinion here is wrong, leave it. I have done mostly okay in matches with my really poorly fit Sicas (I have little to no vehicle shield SP invested, only armor). That said, I can agree that shields on the vehicle level need A MODERATE amount of love. 90% of what people are calling for would just throw armor out of favor and shield into favor. Remember the flavor.

Just flat out lying. A single 180mm plate gets you higher HP than we can ever achieve. With no mods, you have better mobility (though you have acess to nitrous boosters while we do not).

Shield tanks have 5% better resistance for TEN seconds. No shield tank worth a **** uses surge modules. We are forced to use the 15% passive resistences. You get 25% hardeners.

I said they have the SAME damage. Learn to read.

It is not for no reason that you are flamed. It's because you come to a thread with no information and spout lies.

EDIT: The only reason I care about those lies is we need less people spreading them so the healing can begin. CCP needs to take notice.

And I don't know if you're thinking I want armor tanks nerfed. On the contrary they need to be buffed as well.

We have next to no representation in PC and that is because we are weak.


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EXASTRA INVICTAS Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 121	Posted - 2013.06.14 05:28:00 - [1] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: People forget that Caldari is for ranged engagements and general support fire, basically the "snipers". Plus, you not natural repps..... Why do armor tanks make better railtanks then? People just STFU if you don't know what you're talking about. When did they? I always did better with a Caldari HAV Rail sniping. You must be doing it wrong, or go against terribad rail snipers. Peace, Godin What does a Caldari do better for rail sniping? More EHP? Gallente. Better way to repair? Gallente. More damage? Same. More mobility? Gallente. Better resistences? Gallente. Incorrect. If the Gallente Rail sniper has more EHP than the Caldari tank, it does not have better mobility, and it does not do more damage. Shield tanks have better resistances for a shorter period of time, which makes sense when you should only be activating them to get your tank behind cover quickly, since you should be far and away from the combat. The Madrugar can be equal to the Gunnlogi when fit with Railguns on some fronts, but it sacrifices on others. It is capable of higher damage at the cost of incredibly paper thin tank, it is capable of going faster at NIL tank, it is capable of higher EHP at the cost of all mobility.. The only 100% correct point you have there is Armor repair modules are indeed "better" than shield regenerators. Probably has something to do with CCP factoring in natural shield regen rate. Edit: Before being flamed for absolutely no reason and have people make entirely irate assumptions about me, my personal life, and how I play this game, yes. I armor tank. I am Gallente and only spec into Gallente Suits and vehicles (and for the most part weaponry). That said, I have used far more shield tanks than armor tanks, although I've used both. So trying to say I don't have any opinion here is wrong, leave it. I have done mostly okay in matches with my really poorly fit Sicas (I have little to no vehicle shield SP invested, only armor). That said, I can agree that shields on the vehicle level need A MODERATE amount of love. 90% of what people are calling for would just throw armor out of favor and shield into favor. Remember the flavor.
EXASTRA INVICTAS Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 122	Posted - 2013.06.14 07:57:00 - [2] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote: Incorrect. If the Gallente Rail sniper has more EHP than the Caldari tank, it does not have better mobility, and it does not do more damage. Shield tanks have better resistances for a shorter period of time, which makes sense when you should only be activating them to get your tank behind cover quickly, since you should be far and away from the combat. The Madrugar can be equal to the Gunnlogi when fit with Railguns on some fronts, but it sacrifices on others. It is capable of higher damage at the cost of incredibly paper thin tank, it is capable of going faster at NIL tank, it is capable of higher EHP at the cost of all mobility.. The only 100% correct point you have there is Armor repair modules are indeed "better" than shield regenerators. Probably has something to do with CCP factoring in natural shield regen rate. Edit: Before being flamed for absolutely no reason and have people make entirely irate assumptions about me, my personal life, and how I play this game, yes. I armor tank. I am Gallente and only spec into Gallente Suits and vehicles (and for the most part weaponry). That said, I have used far more shield tanks than armor tanks, although I've used both. So trying to say I don't have any opinion here is wrong, leave it. I have done mostly okay in matches with my really poorly fit Sicas (I have little to no vehicle shield SP invested, only armor). That said, I can agree that shields on the vehicle level need A MODERATE amount of love. 90% of what people are calling for would just throw armor out of favor and shield into favor. Remember the flavor. Just flat out lying. A single 180mm plate gets you higher HP than we can ever achieve. With no mods, you have better mobility (though you have acess to nitrous boosters while we do not). Shield tanks have 5% better resistance for TEN seconds. No shield tank worth a ** uses surge modules. We are forced to use the 15% passive resistences. You get 25% hardeners. I said they have the SAME damage. Learn to read. It is not for no reason that you are flamed. It's because you come to a thread with no information and spout lies. EDIT: The only reason I care about those lies is we need less people spreading them so the healing can begin. CCP needs to take notice. And I don't know if you're thinking I want armor tanks nerfed. On the contrary they need to be buffed as well. We have next to no representation in PC and that is because we are weak. Yeah, with NO tank at all is the Madrugar faster than the Gunnlogi. Unless you have a fetish with "living on the edge" you're not going in without plates, and a single 60 plate is all it takes to go slower than the Gunnlogi, where most people will use 120s or 180s. To use 180s we have to further sacrifice low slots (read: our survivability) using PG modifier modules. By comparison, a single Complex plate on a dropsuit gives ridiculously higher armor levels than complex shield extenders (pretty much 2:1 ratio) but shields are arguably favored in the dropsuit department. To claim that what I said is a lie, when none of it was, is funny. Also, am I allowed to complain that you get passive resists that are higher than our passive resists? Or are we just going to overlook that? And both tanks are hurting inexorably for powergrid, but at least you don't have to give up tank slots to use them. You do have to sacrifice the claim to damage mods which you should rightly have, however. If an armor tank isn't *fit then your shield tank is faster 100% of the time. But you guys ALWAYS ignore that simply because our base speed is higher. It's time to get over that fact* and start dealing with the problems related to shield tanking that ACTUALLY matter. Like: 1) Powergrid problems (due to the powergrid skill change and this hurts all HAVs) 2) Active Hardeners should last ~15s as opposed to 10, while keeping the amount bonus 3) Shield tanks should be enticed into longer range, high powered railgun roles in a better manner (role definition) 4) Shield Active Reps need to be higher bursts than armor (armor should be slower but stay in the thick of the fight longer) These aren't "big buffs" necessary to shield tanks. The shield modules need minor tweaks to be brought in line, not giant changes. Being so quick to "Waaaaaah" and "Waaah" loudly are what bring about free militia LAVs that take prototype level equipment to take out.
EXASTRA INVICTAS Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 131	Posted - 2013.06.15 17:35:00 - [3] - Quote Harpyja wrote: I'm sorry that armor reps were placed into God-mode when they shouldn't be. If you play EVE, you'll find that any armor tanker for PvP does not have an armor rep, but rather a lot of buffer armor and resists be ause armor reps are the slow and steady healers while shield boosters are the aggressive ones. Sure, some ships have bonuses towards armor reps and have incredibly strong armor rep tank fits, but the majority of armor ships rely on buffer. I'm not saying that armor tanks in Dust should rely on buffer only. I'm just saying that they have too good of a burst tank, when they are meant for sustained reps. I don't agree with you that shield boosters should have a small warm up period. Armor reps in EVE intentionally rep at the end of each cycle while shield boosters are effective immediately. But my bias likes your suggestion for shield boosters to boost 900-1200hp/s for five seconds Edit: but if you really don't want armor rep rate to slow, then I think shield boosters should have about 3x the hp/s than armor, just as you proposed, as shield boosters in EVE are somewhat that more effective than armor reps (at the cost of a lot more capacitor usage). This is a little misleading considering 90% of the time a shield tank fit for PVP will also be buffer fit, and generally the only time it isn't is because it's using an ASB. And AARs aren't nearly as awesome as ASBs (they are, in fact, useless) so armor doesn't get that "viable" active tank module. The Tri-Rep Myrm and Hyperion had their own little niches but it is true that shield is the favored tank in EVE. Regarding "burst tanking" being the tanking method in EVE, I have brought some numbers and my perception of it: Large Shield Booster II (all V): 240sHP/4s = 60HP/s Large Armor Repairer II (all V): 800aHP/11.3s = 70.8HP/s So clearly Armor Repairing is the "stronger" of the two, at least until we include X-L Shields (which Armor doesn't have an equivalent of): X-Large Shield Booster II (all V): 600sHP/5s = 120HP/s So shield and armor are fairly "equal" until X-L sizes are brought into the equation. The Large Rep repairs more damage overall and has a slightly better HP/s ratio, but it takes nearly 3x as long just to complete a cycle, which can and often does mean death. My main point is, if you're trying to balance shields and armor in DUST based on how things are in EVE, where shield is the clear favorite (and has been for years) we'll just wind up with the same situation in DUST, where suddenly shield reigns. Considering capacitor isn't a balancing factor in the equations for DUST, it may be a bit simpler here. Personally I would like to see constant regeneration added to armor tanks (in both EVE and DUST) where rather than suddenly regaining X amount of armor, the repairer actively repairs its maximum amount for the duration of its cycle. So, using the example above, the LAR II would actually constantly repair 70.8HP/s as opposed to repairing 800 HP suddenly every ~11 seconds. This would help give it the feel of being a "sustained" tank while giving Shields the "burst" feel. But shield reps (in DUST) need a slightly higher HP output before that can happen.